wow! this sounds really rough. s to you, mamma! can you tell me what his naps are like? does he sleep during the day? what time does he go down at night? when does he wake in the morning?

do you have any other reinforcements to call in? can you have a relative/friend come play with him for a bit in the afternoon so you can get some sleep? have you tried Calms Forte for Kids? have you tried Calms Forte for yourself?

try to minimize everything else around you. let the housework go, make very simple meals (or do take-out). do whatever it takes for you to make the rest of your life as easy as possible.

i know it's really rough, i went through the same thing w/my ds2, and i hated all the people that told me that it would get better eventually, b/c it took a loooong time. he only started to STTN after age 2. but things are much better now, and i'm starting to recover from all the sleep dep.

You have a high needs child. A very sensitive child. You have not 'yet' found anything to help him. You are feeling very frustrated and defeated. You blame your parenting approach. You need some reassurance and support.


First, do you have a local group or any freinds that support you in your way of parenting? If not please look! API Parent Support Groups

Second, if your son is experiencing discomfort in anyway, why leave him to cry? Why would leaving him to cry really improve your spousal relationship? Does leaving a child to cry alone really solve his problem? Would it truley give you rest? Do you think CIO will you give a magical sleeping 7mo old and easy going parents? You need someone to give you a break in real time, so you can approach things again with a clear head.


Of course, I do not how you did this but I do recommend checking out this group and describe your son's behavior. It takes a month to remove all dairy from your milk , for example so you may not have truely reached "baseline" in order to tell if it is an allergy or sensitivity. Foodlab Yahoo Group
Food would be main suspicion, probably with your mounting stress adding to it.


My second son has a very high need type of personality (unlike my first son which was SOOO easy going and loved sleep). He did lesson his need level a bit when I figured out his diary allergy. He is still very easy to get frustrated, screams at night, nurses a ton, in short more time consuming to mother but also reaping the most from AP.
A high need child really benefits the most from gentle, attentive parenting because they are the ones that need a guide to soften off the edges of the world. If they are already coming from a 'sharp' inner perception of life, a gentle upbringing is what they need!

Notice my two boys with identical parenting, but entirely different personalities. Aggressive parenting does not 'fix' a high demand child, but rather teaches a child not to ask for help.

I will try to find some articles for you. Keep us updated! He will be 3yrs old before you realize it. This is such a short time in his life and yours!

Hugs mama. The same issue brought me to the boards tonight (my son's sleep).

Just a few quick thoughts:
You mentioned he sleeps well in the carseat. I'm assuming you've ruled out reflux? Does he sleep better sitting upright? etc?
I know a baby that loves to bounce to sleep - if he likes the vibration of the car ride, maybe try bouncing him to sleep on an exercise/birthing ball?

What about sleeping in a swing? (if you're comfortable with that) Maybe the motion would help? I've heard of some kids that do this also

Have you had him checked out at the dr (sounds like it?) I was just wondering if maybe his ears hurt or something..

We've used Hylands teething tablets, sometimes they help DS settle down, sometimes they don't. I also know some people who use .. I think it's called Camilla by Boiron (name of the company) it's like a chamomile liquid drop..

Is there any activity that does seem to soothe your child, daytime, nighttime, anytime (other than the carride?) Bath time? anything? Maybe play that up?

I hope it gets better soon.

His naps are pretty much non existant... for instance, today, going by his sleep cues, I got him nursed down twice -- once I put him in his crib so that I could try and get some housework done (if I leave him alone in one of the "big" beds, he'll crawl off when he wakes up, and now he's figured out how to get around the little side rail things we put up... so for the time being, unless I'm in bed with him, his crib is the safest place for him to be. He's fallen off the bed 4 times in the past month). The second time, I nursed him down while laying next to him because *I* wanted to nap as well, and I was hoping he'd maybe nap a little longer with me asleep with him.

Both times he slept for no longer than 20 minutes. And actually, the second time might have been less than that (did he even go to sleep at all?) but I fell asleep pretty quickly. I just know it was 20 minutes later when I woke up to little feet in my face while he was trying to crawl onto the nightstand (OooH! Shiny lamp!)

His down and up times for the night/day vary greatly since he sleeps so poorly. I generally start his bedtime routine when he starts giving me sleep cues (I've tried to stick with a totally baby-led schedule... so much for that "babies fall into their own natural patterns" thing). Sometimes it's as early as 7, other times it's as late as 4 in the morning. Obviously, him getting to sleep affects when he wakes up the next day, and since I'm a SAHM, I just try to get as much sleep as I can when he's sleeping, so we don't have any alarms set or anything like that. Some days we sleep until 2 in the afternoon, other times he's up at 5 in the morning. Sometimes, he's up at 5 in the morning when he didn't go to bed until 3. heh.

Everyone in my family is seemingly afraid to let me get some sleep. Everyone is like "He's just all fussy and doesn't want to ever do anything! I don't know what to do with him!" at which point, everyone thinks he needs a boob and just brings him into the bed with me, so it doesn't really help a whole lot. Even today, my husband took a vacation day to try and help a little.... and I got a whole 45 minute nap before he decided that Ryan wanted Mommy.

One thing I think no one understands though is that he's just as fussy and irratable for me as he is for everyone else... I'm sure he might "want" me, but I'm not magic or anything, and I'm generally trying a zillion different things to calm him down/chill him out during the day, too. Sometimes he totally refuses to nurse, even... which has kind of thrown this big stake into my normal plan. Here I always thought that the boob would be a great fail safe. Unfortunately, it's not working so much anymore.

I've never heard of calms forte. What is it? Where do you find it? I'm willing to try anything at this point. lol.

And yeah, this website has actually instilled a little fear in me more than making me more confident that I'm doing the right thing. The thought of going through this when he's 2, 3, 4, even 5 and older like some of the threads here mention totally freaks me out. It's not even sleeping through the night that I want... I just want him to fall asleep and stay asleep for more than an hour without getting up and it taking 2 - 3 hours to get him back down again.

If he'd wake up, nurse, and go back to sleep, I'd be happy... even if we were waking up 5 - 6 times at night. lol.

Yeah, we have a local AP group, I've joined it and have met with the moms a few times, but with Ryan's lacking sleep schedule, it's really hard to get out and about with everyone and I have a really hard time becoming friends with people... So while I've "met" everyone 3 or 4 times since he's been born, I really don't know any of them, have phone numbers or any of that stuff. I should probably work on my own social issues/shyness. lol.

My best friend since 5th grade, however, has a son 6 weeks younger than Ryan, and she is also an AP mom.

So, I have people, I'm just not very good at opening up to them/asking for help/support whatever. Even with my BF, I think we talk every couple of weeks and we try to get together at least once a month just to let the boys "play."

And I totally agree with all your questions about the CIO stuff. I don't really think it will solve anything, at least I don't WANT that to be the answer. There are plenty of people who swear to me that it IS the answer, but I try to let all of that go in one ear and out the other.

I try really hard to not have to let him cry *at all* though sometimes I'm busy doing something and he's just mad so it happens on occasion. I guess I'm just starting to fear that he's only crying because he's mad and doesn't want to do whatever...

He's awake, I'll finish posting later.

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Ah, something I forgot about -- my last statement about him not really crying at all, I have to take that back. For he screams like he's being tortured while I'm trying to change his diaper or get him dressed. I am pretty sure that it's just because he has to lay still for a whole 30 seconds (which of course can end up taking up to 5 minutes when he's kicking, rolling and otherwise ticked off about it). I'm not really sure what else to do in that situation other than let him be mad and cry about it. He doesn't do it all the time, so I don't think it's because of any pain or anything, it's only when he's been playing and say spits up on himself or I hear him go number 2, in which case I try to change him pretty immediately. He just seems to be mad because I've taken him away from his playthings for a few minutes.

I mean, there's not really anything I can do about stuff like that, right? I know that cognitively, he's not being manipulative yet but I also know that come 2 or 3, if he's been "given in" to his whole life just because I'm trying to prevent him from crying because I've read that it's bad for him... well, won't he eventually start crying to be manipulative? Surely babies are pretty smart. I remember doing it myself when I was 4 and 5 because I knew it would help me get my way with my grandparents.

So how do I get him to do something he needs (such as a diaper change) or prevent him from doing something dangerous (like chewing on the electrical cords) without him crying, when it clearly makes him mad? I mean, is that still AP, even though he's shedding some tears? I guess I think that's where I've screwed up a little bit -- I think somewhere along the line, I thought that if I gave him what he wanted all the time that he would want the things he needs. That's where my fear that I'm going about this the wrong way is coming in.

Back to the topic at hand....

Elimination diet -- I did about a month and a half with no dairy, soy, nuts or eggs... even trace amounts. There wasn't any difference in his sleeping patterns or behavior at all, so I slowly started reintroducing the stuff back to my diet, and there still weren't any changes. Though I do plan on asking his pediatrician if we can do an allergy test in case it's something totally off the wall. But I've been pretty good about writing down what I eat and what he eats and there really doesn't seem to be any correlation at all except tomatoes/tomato sauce (pizza, spaghetti, etc) gives him a bad tummy ache. So I haven't had anything with tomatoes in it since he was about 2 weeks old when we figured that one out.

And the time consuming stuff doesn't bother me, really... the lack of sleep gets to me from time to time, but it really is more the fact that he is fighting sleep so much when he clearly needs it. I know that as a mother I can't just "give in" and let him play 24 hours a day. And I also know that sleep time is when they grow and develop and all of that stuff. I know that he needs sleep, he's just not wanting to for whatever reason. And heck, seriously, I would so be able to handle him waking up 4 - 5 times a night to nurse if it didn't take me hours to get him *back* to sleep. And even cosleeping doesn't seem to help with that. Once he wakes up, no matter how short of a time it's been, he's ready to go for another couple hours before he wants to sleep again, and even then, sometimes it's a struggle.

We haven't done any testing for reflux because I thought they had to have the spitting up/projectile "vomit" and stuff like that? The only real issue he has is crankiness and sleeping. I think it has more to do with the vibration and the fact that he's all curled up in the seat, because if I try to get him to sleep in the seat without the car ride, he just screams. lol. Honestly, I think it's just that the car ride gets his mind off of whatever it is that has him so freaked out about going to sleep in the first place.

And when he's not wanting to go to sleep, he won't even let me hold him. He does the whole arch-the-back-twist-turn-scream thing. So the bouncing doesn't really help a whole lot, because he won't relax in my arms at all.

We finally had to retire his swing It was one that had the A shaped frame on both sides and he kept leaning over in the seat and hitting his head on the frame. But he never really slept good in that either, I think he napped in it twice since he's been born. He thought the swing was more for play. He loved swinging. He'd squeal and kick and have a good ole time in it, lol.

He has a well check on Friday, so I'm going to ask about a ton of things. But we were just at the doctor a couple weeks ago when all of this started getting really bad and he was fine. The pediatrician was even kind of baffled. He said that it could be teething, but it didn't appear so because there wasn't any signs of it as far as his gums were concerned.

We've used the teething tablets, a few different brands, and the gentle naturals teething drops... I've even tried tylenol and motrin to make sure he wasn't in any pain elsewhere... and none of them made any difference. I still try every couple of days, just to make sure, but I have a feeling it's something more psychological than physical. It's just that I don't know what it would be and I have no idea on how to make it better.

Bathtime is hit and miss. Sometimes it soothes him, sometimes it just wires him up. It's part of our bedtime routine though. He loves to be walked around in the mei tai, but only if we're out at a store or someplace. He won't let me wear him when we're at home. I guess because he knows this is home and there are toys around and things to do that are much more fun than hanging out on Mommy.

He likes to watch tv. But I hate letting him watch tv. I'm too afraid of the issues that it can cause down the road. I try to keep the tv off anytime he's in the living room all together. But if DH is home and watching something, Ryan loves to sit on the floor and watch along with him.

One other thing -- do you guys think that maybe I should try doing a little bit of "parent led" scheduling? I mean, should I try to wake him up at the same time each day, put him down for naps and bed at the same time every day for a couple weeks and see if that helps any?

Maybe he needs some help setting his biological clock or something? Because the nonexistant schedule has been there since he was born. He *never* has fallen into any sort of predictable pattern as far as being awake, eating and sleeping are concerned. It just kind of happens whenever it happens...

Here is what has happened since 1 this morning:

1 am -- nursed to sleep
1:27 am --- awake, screamed instantly
2:40 am -- back to sleep after walking, rocking, nursing. He also had a couple cheerios while I went to the bathroom.
3:12 am -- awake screaming -- I watched him on this one... the scream-cry started before he actually woke up.
3:27am -- back to sleep after waking, shhhhing, rocking. I turned the heater in his room down to 65 from 68 as he was sweaty.
3:45 -- awake screaming again.
This time, since it was time for my husband to get up for work, I just had to let him play and such while I got DH up and ready to go. He played with DH for a few minutes, nursed, was rocked some more, nursed again...
5:00 --- took him for a ride, got home at 5:31.

That is what my nights (and days) consist of pretty much. The poor boy has to end up being completely exhausted by the time he'll get any sleep. And while I don't have an exact diary of yesterday, he woke up around noon, napped for 20 minutes at 2:30, napped for 25 minutes at 5:00 and napped for about 15 minutes at about 8.

So, since he woke up at noon yesterday, he's been awake for 17 hours on about 3 hours of sleep.

Now, if this goes like it has been the past few days... he'll sleep about 5 hours in his carseat, wake up, come to bed with me, and we'll get about another 3 hours of sleep.... and then we're in for the longhaul again.

calms forte is a homeopathic sleep aid, no side effects, completely safe, you can buy it at a health food store, and many mainstream stores are now carrying it.

i recommend you find a chiropractor who uses applied kinesiology. they're really good at finding what's amiss. he may have something out of alignment that's causing him random pain. here's a link to see if there are any in your area.
http://www.icak.com/about/icak_faq.shtml

i want to address your other issues about discipline and manipulation, but will have to do so after work today.

I do have a little time to say that a lot of what you describe also fits my second son to a tee!
Mine also back arches, screams in his sleep untill he wakes up etc. A lot of this COULD be just his personality. Holding or staying right next to your son (if he won't permit you to hold him) is acceptable if you cannot find anything to help soothe hiim. It is far better to be close to someone while you cry then alone!

Responding to a baby's crys will not teach him to manipulate. Responding will teach him that he matters, that you love him, that talking about things is useful.. I am sure PaxMamma will write about that more. I am teaching my son babysigns and at 14 mo he has started doing some. It has helped with the frustration for him because he can communicate more effectively.

I have to get the 4yr old to school. Will write more later.

Maybe you should call that freind, tell her how tired you are and take a nap while she plays with both the babies (hers and yours). YOU NEED THAT!

sorry bad spelling!

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"So how do I get him to do something he needs (such as a diaper change) or prevent him from doing something dangerous (like chewing on the electrical cords) without him crying, when it clearly makes him mad? I mean, is that still AP, even though he's shedding some tears? I guess I think that's where I've screwed up a little bit -- I think somewhere along the line, I thought that if I gave him what he wanted all the time that he would want the things he needs. That's where my fear that I'm going about this the wrong way is coming in."





Wow, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. I don't have any advice on the sleeping, but wanted to say that I don't think AP means that babies never cry. You don't want to ignore your baby's cry (which you're not), but that doesn't mean they will never cry. As babies get older they don't just cry from hunger, discomfort or being tired they also cry from frustration because they can't do/have everything they want and they don't understand why. That doesn't mean we let them do/have it because we don't want them to cry. I'm learning this with my 9 month old because he's starting to have mini temper tantrums out of frustration. He also cries sometimes when I change his diaper because I'm interrupting whatever he was doing. I just talk to him or sing to him and explain why he can't have or do something. I try to give him something else or get him doing something else to distract him. He ends up crying sometimes and I hate it, but I know what's best for him and what is dangerous. Personally it's something I have to work on because I hate to say no to him especially because he doesn't understand why, but it's something that has to be done. I don't leave him when he's crying, I stay right there. Also I try to keeps things that he can't have away from him as much as possible, so that we don't have to go through the struggle in the first place.

AP is not "giving in to your child". That's what the critics say it is, but it's more about being there for your child, and treating them with love and respect. Children still have to have rules to protect them and teach them about the world. I think it's how you go about teaching them the rules that makes it AP or not AP.

Good luck.
Amy

with regard to scheduling, it may be helpful to try to implement a flexible one. it's very possible that his circadian rhythm is off. i know it's a rotten time of year, but i've read stuff on getting babies into sunlight first thing in the morning. this helps their bodies be aware that it's daytime. plenty of outside time, fresh air, and sunlight can go a long way to soothing a cranky baby, and to helping them understand the difference between day and night.

as far as manipulation goes, i do not believe that children are manipulative--at least not in the sense that we adults mean. manipulate literally means to use your hands to figure things out. so, children do manipulate, in order to get what they need, this is called survival instinct. children who do not have this are usually labeled with "failure to thrive" and in the worst places, like orphanages, they will die. if a child appears to "manipulate", like w/the grandparents that you mention, then it is b/c the adults in their lives are inconsistent, sending mixed messages, and confusing the child in how to get their needs met. therefore, these children actually learn the "power" of manipulation through the example of the adults around them. and, of course, the psyche at this age is very ego-centric, another survival skill.

there is nothing wrong with any of us trying to get what we need, even what we want. life is about trying to live at your fullest, while living in harmony with those around you. shouldn't we all try to get what we want in this way?

Well, last night after we got home, he slept in his carseat until 9. I brought him to bed with me, we were back to sleep by 9:30, he woke up again at 11 and after shuffling around a bit in bed, we were back to sleep and woke up for the day at 2.

I haven't given him any solids today, minus a few cheerios to keep him occupied while I was doing the dishes and instead of fighting him for naps, I decided to just load him up and drive him a bit.

He took a nap from 4:30pm until 6:10pm in his carseat, and we just put him down for another at 9 (again, in the carseat).

I figure he needs the sleep enough right now that I'm not really going to worry about trying a thousand other things first until we can find out what's wrong with him.

In reference to whoever asked about reflux earlier -- he did go through a short spell while he was playing today where he gagged a bit, gulped a few times and immediately started crying. I'm wondering if he did that heartburn thing where you puke up a little bit of acid? I'm definitely going to bring that up with the doctor tomorrow afternoon.

Maybe after I get him sleeping a little better (so that I can get a little more sleep), I'll try my hand at some sort of flexible schedule. It's hard sometimes with the hours that DH works to figure out what would be the best schedule for us to even be on, but we'll see if we can figure something out.

The hardest part is going to be getting *me* awake enough to get him up, haha. I think that's the hardest part about cosleeping... which is generally a benefit, unless you really need to get out of bed, lol. We've slept through doctor's appointments and all sorts of stuff -- even with all the alarms on -- more times than I can count.

I feel a lot better sleep-wise today than I was feeling yesterday, so hopefully the bits of solid sleep I got last night will give me the strength and patience to have at this for a few more days until we get things running a little more smoothly.

Thank you all for your encouragement and support. I really, really needed it. I'll let you know what the pediatrician says when we get back from the doctor tomorrow.

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ETA : He woke up from his second nap at 10:00, we nursed, played with the lights low for about an hour and a half, I fed him some applesauce because he was acting like he wanted to eat (he goes to the baby gate to our kitchen and starts shaking it while chewing his fingers, lol). We played for about another hour, then we did bathtime, a couple stories, and nursed again. He threw up after all of that and then I couldn't get him to relax back down, so we went for a car ride again...

He was asleep at 12:55, we'll see if tonight goes any better.

I'm definitely glad someone said that about reflux... maybe that is what is happening; I just always figured that it was regular baby spit-up. But he actually does have a lot of the symptoms now that I"ve looked it up. So I definitely plan on bringing that up with our pedi.

Hey RyansMommy610, are you in my area?
If you are you should PM me and I will try to meet you sometime!

look into reflux

I'm new to the board, brought here by my second son and his sleep schedule, but as I was about to post I read yours.... My first son was similar to yours in that he screamed ALOT, had trouble staying asleep unless I was holding him,but even then woke several times, going back to sleep with nursing or a little bouncing. I sat on the couch for over a year! I remember just how really frustrating it can be! But, what spurred me to write was your question about reflux. We did find out that was an issue for my son, though I kept thinking it wasn't when people suggested it because he wasn't spitting up all the time. WRONG. I went to see a gastroenterologist when he was one and she said that does not have to be the case. They can still be having reflux when they are not spitting up. You are describing both my son and my nephew to a tee, in terms of the constant crying, and short naps, though both of them literally did not stop nursing, because that was the only way to help the soreness in their little throats.
I would suggest seeing a GI and letting them know what is happening. One note is that, at least here in NH, the Dr. may tend to put your son on Prilosec which insurance companies like best, but is not the most effective reflux med. So, if that happens and you don't see a change, ask for something else (Prevacid works best for my son). I will not tell you there will be a miracle, but my son at least started sleeping longer stretches and cried less. My only regret was I waited so long.
There were many fits on my part when I was in the middle of it all, and I too questioned what I was doing with the whole AP thing. Looking back, though I am glad for it, because my son was obviously trying to tell me something, and had I ignored him then I would feel bad now. (I did try CIO once because I was so desperate, but it did not work...he cried one night for too long to admit)
I would also suggest the Ergo carrier, as it is a VERY comfortable back carrier. My second son spent 9 months in it as I was too involved with my other to spend all that time trying to put him to sleep. I found that in a front carrier I was annoyed all the time because it really got in the way,but once I moved him to my back I was a new woman. He would ride around happy and just fall asleep when he was ready and wake when he was ready ( a few hours) There is a little hood you can use to keep his head from bobbing backwards as well. I still use it all the time when we are out and about.
This was a much longer post than I anticipated I hope maybe it helped. I won't say being an AP mom isn't frustrating, but looking back it was the best choice for us with my little boy who obviously did need mamma.