Leif at age 4 ½ has really been challenging us the past few months in terms of discipline and authority. Sometimes he wants to be the boss and either tell us what to do, talks back or refuses to clean up his toys or is being very rough with our pets. I understand that this is normal developmental behavior and he is testing his boundaries but he still has to learn the rules of acceptable conduct and respect. We really believe in gentle discipline and talking about the situation so he can understand it and find that it’s not really getting through so well to him at times lately. He is a very strong-willed person!
For example, for those times that he’s being particularly rough with our pets (who are old and don’t want to deal with a 4 year old) and won’t listen when we say to stop or explain, “This hurts them, wouldn’t doing this to you hurt you, too?” He always agrees but then wants to go back to what he was doing. At those times, he must go sit in time out on the couch for a few minutes. I think the couch has become too easy for him from what I can tell so lately if we have to do a time out, he sits in the hallway for a few minutes instead. He really doesn’t like that so finally something got through to him about how serious we are about being gentle to the creatures he lives with.
Recently I found myself saying something to him that my mother used to say to me and my siblings when she would get really annoyed. She would say, “I will count to three and if X is not done then Y will happen.” My son stared blankly at my face when that blurted out a few weeks ago. Then I had the bright idea to explain this statement to him in a way that a four year old could understand. It was done calmly and I changed the number three to ten and it felt more like a “Love and Logic” type of action/consequence sequence. He is old enough to really grasp that now. The first time I used this, he counted along with me and I had to explain to him that no, really you don’t want me to get to number 10!
Ever since then the few times I’ve had to use it he says, “Don’t count!” and rushes to do whatever it is I ask of him. It works great for the gentleness towards the pets (the consequence is sitting in the hallway), cleaning up the toys before bedtime (the consequence is a toy being taken away if I have to clean up all by myself) and I rarely have to use it now because he has learned to listen and respect what either parent is saying to him and that we mean business. Follow through on the consequence is most important. He even is trying to play nicely with the pets on his own now. Wow. It’s a work in progress but at least we are progressing forward.
I don’t know what clicked in his head with the whole counting bit because the same consequences were in effect before the count to ten took place but it works every time and quickly, too. I truly am amazed. I don’t get angry, I keep my voice calm and he is learning how to control himself and listen better.
I do feel some discipline is necessary to correct improper behavior because we live in a society with rules that we must follow. Gentle, non-violent discipline has been proven to work time and time again. Even if Leif sits in the hallway, he is learning about the consequences of his actions and he knows we still love him. Children also like to know where their boundaries are which is why they test them so often and they like to know that their parents will uphold those boundaries. It makes them feel safe.
How do you feel about gentle discipline or discipline at all?
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I liked your post. I got to your site by stumbling and this is the first comment I’ve ever left at a blog. My sons are 27 and 24. I was a mom at 19. So, some of my contemporaries are still (!?) having children, at least I’m not ancient.
I know that you are absolutely on target with consistent consequences. The variance of the reliability of consequences is what will doom your success in having them listen when you say something. I believed in this strongly as a new mom, and even more strongly as a “seasoned” mom.
What I can tell you is at the end of the (very brief) time of actual hands on parenting (how did it go by in a blink?) your children will be citizens in a world full of consequences. You are teaching them one of the most basic life skills for survival that they can know.
Congrats young moms…your children will thank you.
I understand and agree that children need boundaries and guidelines but I disagree with the counting to 10 and consequences. He is doing something that *you* want because of a threat not because doing x,y,z is the proper thing to do. He is isn’t thinking about the action or why the request was made at all. I guess this doesn’t match what I thought API positive discipline meant. I thought the use of time outs and threats was discouraged and I was actually surprised when I read this on the API blog.
It’s certainly possible to work any kind of non-violent, gentle and sensitive behavior modifier in to an AP family’s structure. When time out is used as an environment in which a child learns to regain control in order to better handle an inappropriate behavior then I find it very in line with AP. When counting is used as an reminder to the child that he or she should rethink his behavior then, again, this still mirrors the basic principles of gentle discipline. On the contrary, when a child is motivated by fear, be it fear of punishment, humiliation, or shame, that consequence is no longer effective or appropriate.
It is so difficult, and perhaps even dangerous, to determine if another parent is AP or not. We do the best with what we know and we do our best to keep our homes peaceful. And on our journey it is our duty to provide each other with support.
When we created API Speaks this spring, we had this type of discussion and respectful disagreement in mind. I would say that I, personally, hoped for it because I think it’s important to bring some of these topics to the forefront of parenting dialog today.
So many discussions cover only the “to spank or not to spank” debate, and as this post and the resulting comments show, there are many more shades of gray when it comes to discipline.
While our disclaimer specifically states that contributor views do not necessarily reflect the views of API, I also have to agree with Corrina when she said that it is difficult and dangerous to try to judge whether another parent is AP or not AP, especially based on a single blog post, a single comment, or a single situation witnessed at the local grocery store.
Instead, I think API’s job is to provide support to parents who wrestle with the challenges of parenting in today’s world, to provide them with information about how to treat their children with compassion and respect, and to encourage this type of respectful debate.
In that light, I thank all of our wonderful contributors for not trying to sugar-coat their experiences on their parenting journey, and I thank all of our conscientious readers for respectfully speaking up when they have a different point of view.
Warmly,
Julie
As long as an AP parent is doing what works for them, is being non-violent in the process, and is respecting the child, isn’t that what AP parenting is about?
Susan, when you write “He is doing something that *you* want because of a threat not because doing x,y,z is the proper thing to do,” sometimes certain children react to different techniques.
I also use time-out with my 4.5 year old son. After I give him a chance to do the proper thing, and he still doesn’t do the proper thing, this is the next step. I would not use this method, nor did I use this method when he was younger, but for us, my 4.5 year old son is old enough, and does know the proper thing to do when I ask him to do something.
He knows if he doesn’t do what I ask, then X will happen. I don’t see it as a threat, but rather like Melissa, in that it is teaching him to respect rules, and requests. If he doesn’t do the proper thing, then there is a consequence.
When he goes to school, if he doesn’t do the proper thing, the teacher will have consequences for him, and I would much rather be the one to gently teach him this lesson, by removing him from his environment when he does not do the proper thing, then to never show him there are good and bad consequences for our behavior.
I also reward him when he does do the proper thing. I give him lots of praise and tell him thank you for doing what Mommy asked.
I think there are a lot of tools that AP parents can use, depending on the nature of their children, and the more tools they have to use, the less chance there is of the parents becoming frustrated and resort to spanking, hitting, or yelling.
Time- outs may not work for every family, but I don’t think a family should be looked down on as non-AP if they use a method in a gentle and respective way, and their child responds to it.
In the end, we are all trying to guide our children with respect, but also trying to teach them about how the world works at the same time.
Time-outs were my gateway to gentle discipline at all, so I hate to see them judged harshly in API circles. You can’t go from “I need an alternative to spanking” to “you can’t use any punishment at all” and hope that parents will see AP as a viable choice. I also think that there are MANY ways to do time-out, some of them good and some of them bad. A gently and respectfully instituted time-out sure beats spanking or screaming!
I have 2 kids of discipline age. With the first I tried time-outs and they rapidly deteriorated into a power struggle. Time-out was more about keeping him in time-out than the behavior we were trying to change. So we ditched time-out pretty quickly. This kid is very sensitive and receptive to talking so mostly we talk things out and find this very effective. With this kid if we’re careful to lay out what’s expected of him then all we have to do is remind him and he changes his behavior.
This approach does not work with my second son. He is very physical and doesn’t process auditory input the way his brother does. With my second son we need to physically intervene by getting down to his level and touching him when we need something to change. Sometimes he gets so excited that his behavior escalates and we’re finding that removing him from the situation is the only way to de-escalate it. We tried “time-in” but having us there again makes this into a power struggle. So for my second son we first make attempts to distract and redirect him but if that doesn’t work we need to remove him from the situation, carry him to another room, then leave him alone to calm down.
I am a huge fan of counting. I feel like it gives the kids a warning that something needs to change and lets them know that I am serious and that they need to listen to me. For example, my kids would love to take 30 minutes to get in their car seat. Usually that doesn’t work so a few times I gave them a count to get in the car seat by themselves and then I helped them. They really want to do it themselves so this gave them impetus to do so quickly. I think counting is a great compromise between “you will obey me instantly” and “whenever you’re ready”
Counting is actually a very good way to help a child understand that there are limits. It is a way to start them thinking about the appropriateness of what was requested of them as well as what their response should be.
As adults, we certainly do not snap to attention and immediately respond to every command given (unless you are in the military and that is another issue entirely). We DO NOT want our children to always obey instantly to any command given. That can be dangerous! We want them to tlearn how to hink about what is being asked of them and then respond as appropriate.
Counting provides that processing time.
As an AP mother of 4, I was a bit surprised to see time outs and counting suggested on API’s blog but I can understand the views expressed in all of the comments.
I’m not saying I think they’re so terrible, but I personally wouldn’t call them the ideal. These are the methods I pull out when I’m overwhelmed and just want results, but I don’t find them particularly effective in the long term or AP.
It’s very true that if we’re coming from a spanking, yelling and shaming view of parenting then time outs are much more child-friendly. Some children are also especially hard to gently steer in the directions we want them to go, too, and one of the examples is a situation where you really need to do something effective since it involves protecting pets.
Still, time outs and other threats are still parenting by fear and control. The children are afraid of the consequence or simply dislike it enough to do something against their will that we want. This isn’t ultimately going to foster attachment. It’s more along the lines of “punitive lite.”
For me, the three biggest risks in using threats and punishments of any sort are:
1) They treat symptoms instead of problems. Instead of the child developing empathy for animals, for instance, he learns to be nice so that he doesn’t get punished. He may also learn to just be rough when mom isn’t looking. To use another example, children of this age often push our buttons on purpose because they are feeling overwhelmed by their emotions and don’t know how to deal with them. If we react to “bad” behavior by using threats and behavior modification, we never get to the root of the problem.
2) These only work when kids are little, or you have to do harsher and harsher things to get the same results. What do we do when our children are teens, when the issues are often even more serious, when they are too big to send to the hall and we don’t have anything bad enough to hold over their heads anymore?
3) They ultimately are disrespectful to kids. It’s bullying and it’s saying “I don’t care what you want, what I want is all that matters and I’m going to make you do it.”
I am NOT saying we shouldn’t discipline our children. I’m saying discipline should mean “to guide, to help, to teach” instead of “to force, to punish.”
Yes, in life we have to follow rules and we have to respect other people and animals. That can be taught in respectful way. It can initially be more work to solve discipline issues without threats, bribes, violence and such but it can be done. In the long run, I’ve found that it makes my own parenting easier because there’s such a level of mutual respect and connection.
For a good read to really stretch your AP muscles, I recommend Alfie Kohn’s Unconditional Parenting. I don’t agree with all of it but you’ll never look at issues like time outs (which he blasts as withholding our love and attention to control our kids) or “natural” consequences the same.
Some books that give great AP tools for older kids are “Kids are Worth it,” “Parents Please Don’t Sit on Your Kids” and “Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline.” These are less likely to make you rant than the Kohn book, though I think both sets of books are really good for opening your eyes to new ways of thinking.
For the record, I am far from perfect and have counted to 3 and yelled and even thrown a shoe or two.
I screw up several times an hour! The author sounds like a loving mom and I’m just tossing this out there as more to think about. If the worst she ever does is send her son to the hall she deserves a medal and copious amounts of chocolate at the very least. 
We all just do the best we can and hopefully we keep reading and discussing and growing along with our kids. I’d love to see a discussion here about ways APers use positive discipline with this age.
Thanks for all of your input and comments on my post. I feel the need to clarify myself just a little bit since I didn’t give all that much detail on this.
I have basically tried many techniques from different gentle discipline books that I own including “The Discipline Book” by Dr. Sears and “Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves” by Naomi Aldort. Nothing was working for my very strong willed and stubborn preschooler.
My son is an only child and I am a WAHM. I completely understand why he acts up and have tried all the recommended techniques I can from these books as well as just dropping everything I’m doing to spend time with him. As a WAHM, I sometimes get business phone calls that I just have to take and he must learn to work with me around that.
His behavior around my pets, especially my dog can turn dangerous (like running into the street with oncoming traffic or putting your hand into a fire) and I don’t really give in on things that could potentially be life threatening. My dog is very, extremely tolerant but is still a dog and could snap one day and rip his face off. You never know.
Leif’s previous “time-ins” sitting on the couch in eyesight of me at all times for the 3 minutes sitting there were not working at all anymore. Even when I moved him to sitting in the hallway initially for whacking the dog in the head with a wooden stick, he sat there for 3 minutes max. At least my dog just growled at him bec. Leif truly hurt him but you never know one day what could happen.
To me, if the recommended techniques by the experts who write books don’t work for a certain child and it could be a potential life threatening situation, stronger yet still gentle measures must be taken.
With my new found positive results through a sort of Love and Logic technique happening, I feel relieved that I don’t have to raise my voice to my son, he is learning the consequences of his actions – a life skill – and my pets don’t get abused because my son is trying to force the elderly animals to play with him because mommy is not available when he wants a playmate.
Maybe it’s not the ideal in terms of AP but then again we are all unique individuals and have to try on all different techniques to find what fits for each person and still keep it gentle. I have never and will never hit my child but I will always try to prevent him from a potentially life threatening situation and to learn some wisdom in the process.
And you know what? He hardly is doing it anymore. This technique fits for my son and maybe can also help some other very strong willed preschoolers (or older). I also didn’t start this until he was around a few months past his fourth birthday, either but that, too can vary for each child.
I agree with the comment that time-outs can be used as a bridge from spanking to gentle discipline. This was actually my path. I grew up with spanking and yelling, and didn’t want to do that so I tried time-outs. They worked, but as I read more and more on gentle discipline (“How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk” is what changed the tide ultimately), I began to see that time-outs — while nonviolent — are still punishment in disguise. I learned to take “anger” out of the equation when disciplining, and when I did that, I found that I didn’t need to punish.
I personally like the “time in” concept. I like to get down on my daughter’s level, get her attention, and explain what I want/don’t want in ways she understands (she’s 2). I also ascribe to the “leading by example” is best.
I also, personally, don’t like counting because I think it teaches the child he or she has x number of times before they have to take Mommy or Daddy seriously.
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